Amy,
First of all, there was no "dig" about your waxing article. Heck, I would find that useful. The only point was how ED feels about an article about waxing.
You say: "He never said in his posts here that the basic idea behind your article isn't useful." YES HE DID
Here, I'll copy and paste it for you.
==============================
Post by Ed on Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:20 pm
The rejection notice never implied that your article was written in first person.
Articles can be free of grammar errors or other errors and still not meet our requirements. Our guidelines state that articles must offer useful information to the reader. Additionally, well-supported arguments are a standard of quality writing. This article did not exhibit either of these qualities satisfactorily.
Ed
==============================
Everyone seems to think this man is God, but you seemed to overlook the professional copywriters who read it as well. Read the part that says "must offer useful information to the reader." The first rejection was he apparently felt that I should have said "everyone feels" because "some people feel" is not what others want to read. This is ludicrous for everyone to be jumping in here defending him and telling me he did not say what is right here in PRINT ON THE FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel like I'm in the twilight zone getting beat up.
Rejection seems highly personal
Moderators: Celeste Stewart, Ed, Constant
Re: Rejection seems highly personal
Roxanne
I don't think Ed is saying that the subject of home schooling isn't what people want to read, rather that the way you're presenting your information/ideas/facts needs a little re-working. Ed's email said:
"This article makes generalized statements that are not supported by facts/evidence. In addition, it does not present the information in a way that is useful to the reader. Readers want facts that are relevant to their situation; what "some people feel" about a situation or what other people do is not useful, usable information for a reader."
You've said that you polled some home schoolers about certain issues and your article is based on their answers/comments. However, from what Ed says, it sounds as though the way you've presented this is a little too vague, (perhaps – I'm only guessing as I haven't seen the article), and doesn’t offer anything in the way of advice for someone contemplating home schooling. For instance, if you're talking about how, as a home schooler, someone can handle the issue of homework, then it's not enough just to say that some home schoolers feel it should be done, while others don't, and leave it at that. You need to offer something else to help someone who may be considering home schooling determine whether s/he should set homework and, if so, how much/when, etc. Writing about how a group of individuals (only you know) feel about an issue is presenting only a viewpoint for the reader; it’s not offering them anything else. Perhaps you could take the comments/advice you obtained from your survey and present them in such a way so that the reader can take something from the article, backing it up with evidence/facts from elsewhere, if necessary, and trying to relate it to someone who isn’t (yet) in the position of those you surveyed.
And apologies if this is what you’ve done and I’m stating the obvious. Like Lysis, I haven’t seen the article and can only base all this on what you’re saying and what Ed’s saying!
Good luck.
Jane
I don't think Ed is saying that the subject of home schooling isn't what people want to read, rather that the way you're presenting your information/ideas/facts needs a little re-working. Ed's email said:
"This article makes generalized statements that are not supported by facts/evidence. In addition, it does not present the information in a way that is useful to the reader. Readers want facts that are relevant to their situation; what "some people feel" about a situation or what other people do is not useful, usable information for a reader."
You've said that you polled some home schoolers about certain issues and your article is based on their answers/comments. However, from what Ed says, it sounds as though the way you've presented this is a little too vague, (perhaps – I'm only guessing as I haven't seen the article), and doesn’t offer anything in the way of advice for someone contemplating home schooling. For instance, if you're talking about how, as a home schooler, someone can handle the issue of homework, then it's not enough just to say that some home schoolers feel it should be done, while others don't, and leave it at that. You need to offer something else to help someone who may be considering home schooling determine whether s/he should set homework and, if so, how much/when, etc. Writing about how a group of individuals (only you know) feel about an issue is presenting only a viewpoint for the reader; it’s not offering them anything else. Perhaps you could take the comments/advice you obtained from your survey and present them in such a way so that the reader can take something from the article, backing it up with evidence/facts from elsewhere, if necessary, and trying to relate it to someone who isn’t (yet) in the position of those you surveyed.
And apologies if this is what you’ve done and I’m stating the obvious. Like Lysis, I haven’t seen the article and can only base all this on what you’re saying and what Ed’s saying!
Good luck.
Jane
Re: Rejection seems highly personal
OK - I will probably get lambasted by Ed for posting this here, but I don't care at this point. This issue was dropped BY ME at 9:27 am today. Others felt the need to come in and beat me up some more and tell me HOURS later to drop it for now after it WAS dropped!!!!!!!!
I am not posting the whole thing here, but my article did everything you guys say it should. Here is one part under the subtitle of "Reasons for Homeschooling"
============
Personal Beliefs
This can include religious beliefs, social beliefs, or any number of other beliefs. Religion is not allowed in schools. Many parents want their children taught what their religion believes. For example, the parent may believe in creation, while schools teach evolution. A parent may feel that their child should say grace before eating. This is frowned upon in public schools.
============
I can't possibly say "All parent s want their child taught what their religion believes". That would be a stupid, incorrect statement because, as we know, many people do not even believe in religion. SOME people who do not believe in religion don't care what is taught in school. HOWEVER, among the homeschool community, this is a huge issue.
In that same section, I also said:
============
Safety Issues
Drug dealers prey on school aged children. It is a parent’s job to keep their child safe. Education on the part of the parent is essential; however, many kids cave to peer pressure. Many kids end up in gangs or on drugs or both. Some parents feel that it is safer to homeschool their child.
============
Now, I can't possibly say that ALL kids end up in gangs or on drugs or both. I can't possibly say that ALL parents feel that it is safer to homeschool their child. That, again, would be a stupid, incorrect statement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Moving on, here is another part that was under the subtitle of "Concerns Regarding Homeschooling"
===============
Education Level of the Parent
A lot of parents feel they are not smart enough to homeschool their children. This is a myth. There are many resources available for homeschooling parents. Online or distance learning is one resource. With this type of learning, the child is enrolled in a school on the internet or through courses where the assignments are given to the student. The student completes them at home and turns them in. The assignment gets graded and returned. The parent’s job at this point is to make sure their child is completing the work.
===============
I can't possibly say that ALL parents feel they are not smart enough to homeschool their children. Again, that would be a stupid, incorrect statement.
Now, for your next argument, I can't even say 10% of parents feel this way because I did not survey all of the parents contemplating homeschooling. I surveyed a group of homeschoolers where I live now and know from 9 years of homeschooling where I lived before what concerns I had heard there. These are serious issues that are not addressed in many places. SOME PARENTS (of the ones I've spoken with) felt that they were the only one who decided to homeschool because of religious beliefs. A couple of the moms in the forum I referenced earlier told me that they felt they were not smart enough to homeschool. Since they read this article as a favor to me, they are realizing that the barriers they thought they had are not really barriers at all.
NOW TELL ME that this information is not being presented in a manner that is useful to the reader. NO - I'm not pasting the entire article here, but the rest of the article follows along these same lines. There are more paragraphs under "Reasons for Homeschooling" as well as more paragraphs under "Concerns Regarding Homeschooling". Each paragraph is structured just like these random ones I chose. The problem is stated and then the solution or reasoning behind it.
I am not posting the whole thing here, but my article did everything you guys say it should. Here is one part under the subtitle of "Reasons for Homeschooling"
============
Personal Beliefs
This can include religious beliefs, social beliefs, or any number of other beliefs. Religion is not allowed in schools. Many parents want their children taught what their religion believes. For example, the parent may believe in creation, while schools teach evolution. A parent may feel that their child should say grace before eating. This is frowned upon in public schools.
============
I can't possibly say "All parent s want their child taught what their religion believes". That would be a stupid, incorrect statement because, as we know, many people do not even believe in religion. SOME people who do not believe in religion don't care what is taught in school. HOWEVER, among the homeschool community, this is a huge issue.
In that same section, I also said:
============
Safety Issues
Drug dealers prey on school aged children. It is a parent’s job to keep their child safe. Education on the part of the parent is essential; however, many kids cave to peer pressure. Many kids end up in gangs or on drugs or both. Some parents feel that it is safer to homeschool their child.
============
Now, I can't possibly say that ALL kids end up in gangs or on drugs or both. I can't possibly say that ALL parents feel that it is safer to homeschool their child. That, again, would be a stupid, incorrect statement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Moving on, here is another part that was under the subtitle of "Concerns Regarding Homeschooling"
===============
Education Level of the Parent
A lot of parents feel they are not smart enough to homeschool their children. This is a myth. There are many resources available for homeschooling parents. Online or distance learning is one resource. With this type of learning, the child is enrolled in a school on the internet or through courses where the assignments are given to the student. The student completes them at home and turns them in. The assignment gets graded and returned. The parent’s job at this point is to make sure their child is completing the work.
===============
I can't possibly say that ALL parents feel they are not smart enough to homeschool their children. Again, that would be a stupid, incorrect statement.
Now, for your next argument, I can't even say 10% of parents feel this way because I did not survey all of the parents contemplating homeschooling. I surveyed a group of homeschoolers where I live now and know from 9 years of homeschooling where I lived before what concerns I had heard there. These are serious issues that are not addressed in many places. SOME PARENTS (of the ones I've spoken with) felt that they were the only one who decided to homeschool because of religious beliefs. A couple of the moms in the forum I referenced earlier told me that they felt they were not smart enough to homeschool. Since they read this article as a favor to me, they are realizing that the barriers they thought they had are not really barriers at all.
NOW TELL ME that this information is not being presented in a manner that is useful to the reader. NO - I'm not pasting the entire article here, but the rest of the article follows along these same lines. There are more paragraphs under "Reasons for Homeschooling" as well as more paragraphs under "Concerns Regarding Homeschooling". Each paragraph is structured just like these random ones I chose. The problem is stated and then the solution or reasoning behind it.
Re: Rejection seems highly personal
Roxanne
Thanks for posting a few excerpts... I’m going to play the devil’s advocate in some ways here, but it might help (then again it might not!).
What if someone is contemplating home schooling for reasons other than religious beliefs and safety issues? Does your ‘reasons…’ section include other reasons that your group of home schoolers may not have offered up? For example, does your article touch on evidence that teaching a child at home on a one-to-one basis is the most effective method of learning? (I don’t have evidence that it is, by the way!). But if you could find something like that, you could include it against a sentence about the average number of children in a school classroom.
Maybe Ed meant that you need to include other reasons other than those cited by your group? I know it’s difficult to think of all the reasons for home schooling, but if you base your article on only what a small percentage of people feel about home schooling it’s going to be difficult to write an article that has wide appeal. You also risk writing an article that comes across as heavily biased on the side of home schooling. I know that your article is pro-home schooling, but perhaps you need to consider some of the counter arguments, or rather questions, someone might have. For example, you give the reason keeping a child safe from drug pushers as one of the pros of home schooling. Again, if you can include some stats to show that children who are home schooled are less at risk of dabbling in drugs, then this would be good. Otherwise it sounds too much like a statement based on little more than hearsay.
As I say, I know your article is pro-home schooling but perhaps Ed meant that it’s a bit too narrowly focused and only addresses those issues that you and your fellow home schoolers have raised. Maybe you could include other reasons that, while may not be important to you, may be important to others contemplating home schooling? For example, some people may want to home school so that they can set the pace at which their child learns (some parents don’t want their child to be *forced* to learn to read and write at a very early age).
Anyway, just some thoughts... Hope it helps.
Jane
Thanks for posting a few excerpts... I’m going to play the devil’s advocate in some ways here, but it might help (then again it might not!).
What if someone is contemplating home schooling for reasons other than religious beliefs and safety issues? Does your ‘reasons…’ section include other reasons that your group of home schoolers may not have offered up? For example, does your article touch on evidence that teaching a child at home on a one-to-one basis is the most effective method of learning? (I don’t have evidence that it is, by the way!). But if you could find something like that, you could include it against a sentence about the average number of children in a school classroom.
Maybe Ed meant that you need to include other reasons other than those cited by your group? I know it’s difficult to think of all the reasons for home schooling, but if you base your article on only what a small percentage of people feel about home schooling it’s going to be difficult to write an article that has wide appeal. You also risk writing an article that comes across as heavily biased on the side of home schooling. I know that your article is pro-home schooling, but perhaps you need to consider some of the counter arguments, or rather questions, someone might have. For example, you give the reason keeping a child safe from drug pushers as one of the pros of home schooling. Again, if you can include some stats to show that children who are home schooled are less at risk of dabbling in drugs, then this would be good. Otherwise it sounds too much like a statement based on little more than hearsay.
As I say, I know your article is pro-home schooling but perhaps Ed meant that it’s a bit too narrowly focused and only addresses those issues that you and your fellow home schoolers have raised. Maybe you could include other reasons that, while may not be important to you, may be important to others contemplating home schooling? For example, some people may want to home school so that they can set the pace at which their child learns (some parents don’t want their child to be *forced* to learn to read and write at a very early age).
Anyway, just some thoughts... Hope it helps.
Jane
Re: Rejection seems highly personal
Jane,
Actually, I did touch on classroom size as one of the topics.
Ed specifically stated "Readers want facts that are relevant to their situation; what "some people feel" about a situation or what other people do is not useful, usable information for a reader."
His issue is with the wording "some people feel" or "most people feel" or things like that. It is not humanly possible to write this article with facts relevant to every reader's situation because there is not one situation that will fit EVERY reader. Some situations fit most, some fit some, some fit a few.
Yes. I touched on many other issues besides the random few mentioned here.
Actually, I did touch on classroom size as one of the topics.
Ed specifically stated "Readers want facts that are relevant to their situation; what "some people feel" about a situation or what other people do is not useful, usable information for a reader."
His issue is with the wording "some people feel" or "most people feel" or things like that. It is not humanly possible to write this article with facts relevant to every reader's situation because there is not one situation that will fit EVERY reader. Some situations fit most, some fit some, some fit a few.
Yes. I touched on many other issues besides the random few mentioned here.
Re: Rejection seems highly personal
Hmm, a thought for you to consider. I know Ed has stated elsewhere in the forum that he doesn't like reading statements like "Many people" or "a lot of people", and prefers facts. Maybe you could research a few statistics?
For example, re: drug use... "The frequency of drug use dropped by 14 percent for each degree that teens perceived their parents as monitoring their activities." (Link: http://byunews.byu.edu/archive05-Dec-teendrugs.aspx)
A statement that might be less generic would be:
"Drug dealers are notorious for preying on school aged children. It is a parent’s job to keep their child safe. Education on the part of the parent is essential; however, many kids cave to peer pressure. Many kids end up in gangs or on drugs or both. Some parents feel that it is safer to homeschool their child. One study showed that teenagers' frequency of drug use dropped drastically for each degree of involvement a parent had in their teenager's life."
I know it's hard to make blanket statements about homeschooling, since it's such an individual choice, but emphasizing that these are just some of the reasons a parent might choose to homeschool and backing up each reason with statistics might help a lot.
Just a few thoughts to help you get the article accepted here, if that's what your goal is.
For example, re: drug use... "The frequency of drug use dropped by 14 percent for each degree that teens perceived their parents as monitoring their activities." (Link: http://byunews.byu.edu/archive05-Dec-teendrugs.aspx)
A statement that might be less generic would be:
"Drug dealers are notorious for preying on school aged children. It is a parent’s job to keep their child safe. Education on the part of the parent is essential; however, many kids cave to peer pressure. Many kids end up in gangs or on drugs or both. Some parents feel that it is safer to homeschool their child. One study showed that teenagers' frequency of drug use dropped drastically for each degree of involvement a parent had in their teenager's life."
I know it's hard to make blanket statements about homeschooling, since it's such an individual choice, but emphasizing that these are just some of the reasons a parent might choose to homeschool and backing up each reason with statistics might help a lot.
Just a few thoughts to help you get the article accepted here, if that's what your goal is.
Re: Rejection seems highly personal
I don't want you to feel like we're criticizing you, Roxanne, we are really trying to help you out. And I'm not trying to beat you up - I hadn't realized you had dropped the issue (I never bother to look at the times on forum posts - but I will from now on!).
I think the advice Jane and Zabrina gave you is spot on. Just to add my two cents - I think you can reword a few sentences to get rid of "some parents feel". I know you're summarizing the results of your survey, so it is natural to say "some parents feel". But you can eliminate every instance of "some parents feel" by addressing the reader directly. For the sentence: "Some parents feel that it is safer to homeschool their child." - you could write something like, "If you worry about drugs in your child's schoolyard, you should consider teaching your child in your home, a safe - and drug-free - environment." I admit, it's not the greatest sentence (it's late), but it addresses the reader's concerns directly, instead of just telling the reader what other parents are thinking. This way, you don't have to say "everyone feels" or "some people feel".
Hope I've helped!
I think the advice Jane and Zabrina gave you is spot on. Just to add my two cents - I think you can reword a few sentences to get rid of "some parents feel". I know you're summarizing the results of your survey, so it is natural to say "some parents feel". But you can eliminate every instance of "some parents feel" by addressing the reader directly. For the sentence: "Some parents feel that it is safer to homeschool their child." - you could write something like, "If you worry about drugs in your child's schoolyard, you should consider teaching your child in your home, a safe - and drug-free - environment." I admit, it's not the greatest sentence (it's late), but it addresses the reader's concerns directly, instead of just telling the reader what other parents are thinking. This way, you don't have to say "everyone feels" or "some people feel".
Hope I've helped!
Re: Rejection seems highly personal
Zabrina,
It is not my goal. In passing the article around to ask for opinions on it, it ended up in the hands of a magazine editor. The magazine wants to buy it. They felt that the article was well written and has great information that will be beneficial to people who are wanting to homeschool.
Amy,
It was a long day. I dropped it here on the forum this morning after I posted the article on a private file sharing site and asked my stay at home mom forum for opinions. The feedback began rolling in almost immediately. At that point, I assumed because Ed said there was no more to say on the matter, that it would be dropped as well. I am happy that I was able to help a few of those people who were thinking they weren't smart enough to homeschool. Tonight, after I noticed new replies here and it got dredged up again, I received the offer from the magazine.
This proves my original point that the target audience knows what they want better than someone who is ignorant about the subject.
It's ok. I'm just not cut out to be a writer for this site with all of it's restrictions. I now know there are many other more lucrative opportunities available. There's no way I would have made what the publication offered me if the article was accepted here. They have also asked that I consider writing a regular column for them. It seems people don't want stuffy, fact filled articles. They like to read the opinions of others.
This was a great learning experience for me. It taught me that just because you run a site and are a so called expert, you don't know everything.
I'm dropping this now. Thank you all for the feedback. Unfortunately (fortunately?) it was not needed. Have a great night!!
It is not my goal. In passing the article around to ask for opinions on it, it ended up in the hands of a magazine editor. The magazine wants to buy it. They felt that the article was well written and has great information that will be beneficial to people who are wanting to homeschool.
Amy,
It was a long day. I dropped it here on the forum this morning after I posted the article on a private file sharing site and asked my stay at home mom forum for opinions. The feedback began rolling in almost immediately. At that point, I assumed because Ed said there was no more to say on the matter, that it would be dropped as well. I am happy that I was able to help a few of those people who were thinking they weren't smart enough to homeschool. Tonight, after I noticed new replies here and it got dredged up again, I received the offer from the magazine.
This proves my original point that the target audience knows what they want better than someone who is ignorant about the subject.
It's ok. I'm just not cut out to be a writer for this site with all of it's restrictions. I now know there are many other more lucrative opportunities available. There's no way I would have made what the publication offered me if the article was accepted here. They have also asked that I consider writing a regular column for them. It seems people don't want stuffy, fact filled articles. They like to read the opinions of others.
This was a great learning experience for me. It taught me that just because you run a site and are a so called expert, you don't know everything.
I'm dropping this now. Thank you all for the feedback. Unfortunately (fortunately?) it was not needed. Have a great night!!
-
Celeste Stewart
- Posts: 3528
- Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:28 pm
- Location: California
- Contact:
Re: Rejection seems highly personal
Even though this topic has officially been dropped, I hope I can chime in (I've been on vacation after all). What I see is this: a clarity problem. Ed doesn't care about our opinions so much as our ability to express and support them.
Here's what I took away from the excerpts: Who feels this way? Some people feel this way? Who are these people? Why do they feel that way? What's the context? Anyone can say that "some people feel this way" but it's not terribly meaningful without context. A group of suburban housewives in the bible belt feel this way? A group of educators with a love for teaching classical Latin? A commune of hippies in Oregon? Who?
How does this topic relate to me, the parent considering homeschooling versus public or private school? Also the repetition of "some people feel" implies that the author didn't do her research. Granted you did: You surveyed actual vested parties in your topic. But you didn't back up your research and take credit for it nor did you identify who these people are. Therefore, why should the reader consider this information credible? Tell us, "According to an informal study of homeschool teachers in rural Kentucky, . . . " or "Mary Beth Johnson, a homeschooling parent from Ohio, believes that homeschooling is best for her children because of her family's religious beliefs." Let us know who you're talking about and why.
"Some people feel" is extremely vague and irrelevant. Who? Why? Are these valid opinions? Or are these statements the agenda of the author (author intrusion)? If valid, show me why. As a writer, I can find plenty of "some people" who feel any way I want them to feel.
But if don't identify who's who, then I can't communicate who I'm talking about. Is it the cop who knows what really goes on? Is it a concerned parent? Is it a good Christian woman who wants the best for her kids? Who? "Some people feel" doesn't tell us a whole lot. It tells us what we already know. We already know that some people object to whatever. That's what Ed's talking about. Tell us what we don't already know. Tell us who objects to what and why. Then back it up with credible data. Build your case.
PS - keep an eye out for those pesky plural/singular pronoun problems:
A parent has a responsibility for his (or her) child. (Not their child)
or:
Parents have a responsibility for their child/ren.
Here's what I took away from the excerpts: Who feels this way? Some people feel this way? Who are these people? Why do they feel that way? What's the context? Anyone can say that "some people feel this way" but it's not terribly meaningful without context. A group of suburban housewives in the bible belt feel this way? A group of educators with a love for teaching classical Latin? A commune of hippies in Oregon? Who?
How does this topic relate to me, the parent considering homeschooling versus public or private school? Also the repetition of "some people feel" implies that the author didn't do her research. Granted you did: You surveyed actual vested parties in your topic. But you didn't back up your research and take credit for it nor did you identify who these people are. Therefore, why should the reader consider this information credible? Tell us, "According to an informal study of homeschool teachers in rural Kentucky, . . . " or "Mary Beth Johnson, a homeschooling parent from Ohio, believes that homeschooling is best for her children because of her family's religious beliefs." Let us know who you're talking about and why.
"Some people feel" is extremely vague and irrelevant. Who? Why? Are these valid opinions? Or are these statements the agenda of the author (author intrusion)? If valid, show me why. As a writer, I can find plenty of "some people" who feel any way I want them to feel.
But if don't identify who's who, then I can't communicate who I'm talking about. Is it the cop who knows what really goes on? Is it a concerned parent? Is it a good Christian woman who wants the best for her kids? Who? "Some people feel" doesn't tell us a whole lot. It tells us what we already know. We already know that some people object to whatever. That's what Ed's talking about. Tell us what we don't already know. Tell us who objects to what and why. Then back it up with credible data. Build your case.
PS - keep an eye out for those pesky plural/singular pronoun problems:
A parent has a responsibility for his (or her) child. (Not their child)
or:
Parents have a responsibility for their child/ren.
-
Celeste Stewart
- Posts: 3528
- Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:28 pm
- Location: California
- Contact:
Re: Rejection seems highly personal
Also, Ed's not suggesting that you say the opposite of what you're saying. For example, if you're saying, "Some people think chocolate milk is unhealthy" and Ed objects to the sentence based on the use of "some people," he's not saying that the correct version of the statement is, "All people think chocolate milk is unhealthy." Rather, he's questioning, "Who thinks this? Why?" Perhaps it's as simple as: "People suffering from xxx disease believe that chocolate milk is unhealthy because ____" or "Pediatricians do not recommend chocolate milk because of its high sugar content."
Use your word processor's "find" feature and search for "some," "many," and "thing" and I'll bet you'll find an excessive number of these words. Replace them with specific words that better describe what you're trying to say. Some people? Who? (Teachers? Housewives? Mothers? Sorority members? Professional women??) Many something or others (Ten percent?/supporting facts?) How many and what? These things? What things?
Use your word processor's "find" feature and search for "some," "many," and "thing" and I'll bet you'll find an excessive number of these words. Replace them with specific words that better describe what you're trying to say. Some people? Who? (Teachers? Housewives? Mothers? Sorority members? Professional women??) Many something or others (Ten percent?/supporting facts?) How many and what? These things? What things?