Need to Know from You

[Ed]

The submission form now includes a link to the guidelines, which will open a new window.

Can you please chime in and let me know whether or not you have seen this feature? As we get more authors (and therefore more submissions), it becomes increasingly important that guidelines are followed from the first submission onward. Authors are still ignoring the guidelines outright. I don't know how to make them more obvious.

[DSWaltenburg]

The only way to make them more obvious would be to make a whole page pop up as soon as someone clicks the Submit Article button on the left hand Author menu, forcing them to READ the guidelines by way of brainwaves and mind control.(:D)......and then after they've spent the appropriate time reading they can either continue submitting an article or go back and do rewrites and fix boo boos.

[Ed]

But where does CC's responsibility end and the writer's begin?

Site guidelines are made available upon registration and on the submission form; information is given upon registration about the consequences of repeated rejections. We have fulfilled our responsibility by providing these guidelines. While the system isn't perfect, and authors can't be expected to know about obscure protocols that aren't covered by the guidelines, our guidelines give specific information about what we do and do not accept, what format articles should be written in, and examples about properly capitalizing titles. Help can be obtained by contacting Support or by visiting the forums.

Is there any excuse for repeatedly submitting articles that do not conform to our guidelines when our guidelines, in my opinion, do not pose any extreme expectations upon authors?

I'd like to hear others' thoughts about this.

Thanks,
Ed

[BarryDavidson]

You have a point Ed. My first few submitted articles were rejected for various reasons. After a few questions here in the forums, I buckled down and wrote a couple more. They were both accepted.

Perhaps we could find some free links to resources like the AP Stylebook, and others of import.

The writer's responsibility starts the moment they create an account. You could ask for volunteers to review work which has been rejected. The first writer's site I ever joined allowed writers to submit and receive feedback. I'll grant you, most of the feedback was worthless, but on occasion there were those who would do a line by line. It would be hard to implement something like this here, but you do have the option of adding a thread for "Editing Help and Requests".

Are messages sent between authors on the main site indexed in search engines like the messages here on the forum?

We'd just have to let people know that general, "I need help on an article," requests will be ignored. Something like, "I wrote an article on fishing which was rejected for grammar and spelling issues. Would anyone be willing to take a look at it? I find that I keep missing my own mistakes after hours of staring them."

[BarryDavidson]

Ed,

I can see the writer's guidelines, in red, but it blends in so easily. Perhaps you could try increasing the size of the font on those two words?

After looking at a screen for hours at a time, even a red link doesn't stand out much. (Plus I'd say that over 90% of people rarely stop to look for things like that anyway.)

[cgardener]

Ed,

I visit one site that has you check that you have read the rules before you can enter the forums...every single time. Maybe you could do that. Have a page that precedes the submission page that has them check that they have read the guidelines. I wouldn't mind taking a few extra seconds for that if it makes us get more articles approved quicker, because you aren't spending 50% of your time on rejections. 50% is a huge rejection rate, I agree.

[audrabianca]

Here is my 2 cents. If I can follow them late at night, then new writers can follow them when joining the site. Once you teach yourself the rules, you automatically follow them. It's just like any other routine.

[DSWaltenburg]

Everyone is bound to make mistakes from time to time, especially during the beginning phase of their time at CC, however, everyone is given ample notice and direction towards the Guidelines, and the forum threads for New CC Authors, etc. If the writer (including me, in my airheadedness) isn't willing to take the short time to read through and comprehend the rules and suggestions, then that's their choice, and the consequences from ignoring the vital information is theirs to deal with.

You can only hold the bike up so many times before you just gotta let the rider frolick off into the sunset or fall face-first on to the sidewalk!

Maybe (and I have no idea about your workflow, or how you keep track of repeated rejects), if you keep a list of rejects, and see a second one come through for the same careless errors, then with the 2nd reject, issue a statement in the notice that this is their FINAL WARNING, and a 3rd Reject for this issue or any other violation of the Guidelines will result in suspension of their account? I know it's harsh, but for those that just don't get it, it may be what it takes to give them a big ol' wakeup call!

I can't remember how the registration process worked.....whether we had to submit sample writing or not, but perhaps that might be another way to cut down on reject rates. If the sample piece doesn't make the grade, then decline registration at that point? It should be fairly obvious from a sample piece whether their subsequent pieces will be up to par or not.

(Might I add: Holy HayZeuss.......I was thinking my thoughts were cursed, as the power went out right after I typed the last period up there........thank the heavens for Firefox.....hit Restore Previous Session and VIOLA!!!! My postie was still here! :D)

Rock On, Writer Tots!

[Ed]

Barry - I understand where you're coming from, but I think the forums provide a venue where people can get clarifications for their problems. If an author isn't comfortable with this public venue, Support is a click away. We do have a "constructive criticism" thread, to which I refer authors having problems, but its utilized rarely. I guess I'm referring to those points in our guidelines that are not subjective, but those that are spelled out, explicitly.

CGardener - I thought about this. I use a stock photo site that makes you read the TOS every time, but I don't know how staff would feel about this. You are right, though - the number of rejections is staggering. I would much rather spend my time helping writers to fine-tune their work than reminding them of something that has been clearly defined in the single most important document on our website.

Audra - This is sort of my point. Our guidelines are not far-fetched nor deviant from common expectations.

Case in point: capitalization of titles should be second-nature, in my opinion; this is taught in any middle school writing class. However, I know people are iffy about this, so I include examples. However, even if I didn't include examples, there's no mystery about title capitalization. If you are confused by the different styles used by professional publications, you can Google your answer. But we don't ask you to do that. We ask you to use standard capitalization rules and then provide examples. It's absolutely clear.

It's obvious that authors aren't taking the time to read the guidelines, which, in all honesty, baffles me. I can't imagine submitting to any publication without carefully reading the guidelines. Why choose to get serious about submissions only after you realize you can't submit any more?

DSW - A system similar to the one you suggest may be implemented in the future.

[Celeste Stewart]

The guidelines are not rocket science. I can see that it must be frustrating to reject articles because the writer didn't follow the guidelines. I can also see that you might not want to implement the three rejection rule when the writer shows promise and just needs to follow the CC format. However, nagging guidelines and popup boxes would suck for the rest of us. The guidelines are posted, the forum is filled with advice, the reject notices tell the writer to follow the guidelines and provide yet another link to them, we've all agreed to the terms and services of the site, the list goes on...there's no excuse not to follow simple directions.

The problem that I see is that anybody can sign up for an account and submit articles. In their haste, they may think the article is ready to go. After all, it may have been published elsewhere, so it must be good, right?

Maybe make all new accounts "probation" accounts where the writers must first pass a ten question quiz that proves they have read the guidelines. That way, they don't "earn" the right to submit until they have passed the quiz. From there, they might have three chances to submit articles before they move past probation. LIkewise, if such an account tier is possible, writers who consistently fail to follow directions but still show promise may be placed on probation again where they must prove themselves before being suspended once and for all.

[BarryDavidson]

[quote="Celeste Stewart"] Likewise, if such an account tier is possible, writers who consistently fail to follow directions but still show promise may be placed on probation again where they must prove themselves before being suspended once and for all.[/quote]

That is an interesting idea. I realize that I'm new, but like most of you, I've been around the block a few times. There might even be another alternative. Partner up with a site (in a way). Refer writers to each other. Have a link in the rejection notice for this other site which is geared for people to learn through feedback. On the upside, they can also refer people to this site through advertisements, etc. The other site in question would need to be an account based, fully protected site.

Just something to ponder.

[HayleyWriter]

Hi Ed,
I have seen the link and I think most new authors, especially those who really want to be a success, will read them too. I am pleased the submissions have been rewritten for clarity too. I did check them before I made my first submission, but still had rejections in the early stages. I am extremely thankful you had some patience with me when I started here.

Those of us who want to improve our art and enjoy the benefits of successful submissions and sales, will follow the guidelines. They are not difficult and it does become second nature. I refer back to the guidelines reasonably often, but would now get annoyed if I was forced to read them several times a day or every single time I made a submission. A test for beginners before the first submission is a good idea, and would hopefully cut down the rejections.

I guess Ed, it comes down to the old saying, "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink," and however much we publicise the submission guidelines, you are going to get some people who can't be bothered to read them. Get tough on them and save yourself some heartache. Cutting out some of the people before "first base" or first submission with a test or sample of their writing could really help cut down on repeated rejections of those who just wouldn't improve.

However, I am ambivalent about this whole scenario. On one hand, I appreciate Ed's patience with me in my early stages at CC when I had several articles rejected and had some learning to do. I would not be writing successfully, if Ed had locked me out of the website. On the other hand, Ed is obviously getting frustrated with authors who won't read simple guidelines prior to submitting. It is unprofessional to submit any work to any organisation, without checking the guidelines first, and CC is a site for professional writers. Remember, it is the quality of submissions that the customers appreciate. Anyway, there is my 2 cents worth.
Regards,
Hayley

[Ed]

Thanks to everyone who responded. It gives me something to think about.

[heathercarreiro]

I would agree with Barry about increasing the font size or trying to make the Writer Guidelines link stand out more. I just submitted two articles, and I had not even noticed the link. After reading this thread, I went back and looked for it. I think once writers get used to using the submission forms, we just focus on filling in the boxes. Since the new link matches the other colors used on the site, it didn't catch my attention. On the other hand, for my first several submissions at CC I painstakingly went through the submission form and read every word. If writers are just starting on CC, I think the link would catch their attention.

The guidelines are now written very clearly and are in a format that is much easier to read.