Is it just me?
Moderators: Celeste Stewart, Ed
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audrabianca
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I really liked this thread. I was a book-smart type with great educational opportunities growing up. In the workforce, I've suffered from lack of intelligent conversations. People don't seem to want intelligent people around them. I've downplayed IQ as much as I can to fit in, but I miss the days in college when we used to sit around and debate ideas like these just for the sake of debating them. That was a cultural hub I've never found in any workplace.
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audrabianca
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If I could find a workplace like Mona Lisa Smile or Dead Poets Society, I'd never quit.
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jstevewhite
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audrabianca -
Woo, been there, done that, have a cheesy tee shirt to prove it! I hate crowds of people with nothing to say. And people who say "You're making my head hurt!" - as a conversational denouement preparatory to walking away. I'm fortunate in my current 'day job' to have quite a few people around that are willing to wander into the uncharted waters of politics and Important Questions, happily ignoring the "Here Thar Be Dragons!" markers.
I develop logorrhea in forums like this. But you probably didn't guess that, did you?
Woo, been there, done that, have a cheesy tee shirt to prove it! I hate crowds of people with nothing to say. And people who say "You're making my head hurt!" - as a conversational denouement preparatory to walking away. I'm fortunate in my current 'day job' to have quite a few people around that are willing to wander into the uncharted waters of politics and Important Questions, happily ignoring the "Here Thar Be Dragons!" markers.
I develop logorrhea in forums like this. But you probably didn't guess that, did you?
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Celeste Stewart
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My head does kinda hurt - and my eyes are glazing over a bit...
Intellectual stimulation is out there - even if the people you are around don't have anything to say.
It may not be that they don't have anything to say per se, but rather they don't want to bother. I've been around enough so-called intellectual types that are so full of themselves that they don't bother to listen to anyone else because they are so busy preparing their rebuttals. It's not worth the effort.
Others fall on the other extreme where they are simply too intense. They can't simply ask, "How are you?" without expecting an analysis ala "How ARE you, really? How do you feel about that? And why do you think that is?" Give me a break, I'm grumpy and I need my coffee and I think I'd be a whole lot happier if you'd let me just drink it in peace thank-you-very-much.
Just saying that intellectual debate is all fine and dandy but it's not for everyone and that those who aren't speaking up may actually be smarter than you realize.
I've been fortunate to be around many highly-intellegent individuals and many regular folk. Some of the more profound thinkers are regular people. My old boss is possibly the smartest man I've ever met and he's basically a "bubba." I'd take spending an hour with him over an hour with Einstein...
Intellectual stimulation is out there - even if the people you are around don't have anything to say.
It may not be that they don't have anything to say per se, but rather they don't want to bother. I've been around enough so-called intellectual types that are so full of themselves that they don't bother to listen to anyone else because they are so busy preparing their rebuttals. It's not worth the effort.
Others fall on the other extreme where they are simply too intense. They can't simply ask, "How are you?" without expecting an analysis ala "How ARE you, really? How do you feel about that? And why do you think that is?" Give me a break, I'm grumpy and I need my coffee and I think I'd be a whole lot happier if you'd let me just drink it in peace thank-you-very-much.
Just saying that intellectual debate is all fine and dandy but it's not for everyone and that those who aren't speaking up may actually be smarter than you realize.
I've been fortunate to be around many highly-intellegent individuals and many regular folk. Some of the more profound thinkers are regular people. My old boss is possibly the smartest man I've ever met and he's basically a "bubba." I'd take spending an hour with him over an hour with Einstein...
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jstevewhite
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I get that in a general sense, but in my field it's pretty easy to spot the 'sleepers'. And I tend to make a lot of (personal, of course) value judgements. Someone who won't acknowledge my existence might be the smartest person in the world, but how would *I* know? And if they don't care, why should I?
I call those people - the ones that never hear what anyone else says - "pseudointellectuals". They're not really interested in an active intellectual life. But usually, they're not really very intelligent at all, just self absorbed enough to pay attention to "the word of the day" and develop an expansive - and often poorly applied - vocabulary.
I've met people that were very, very smart, and very taciturn. I tend to like them, but they tend to dislike me, because I'm always fishing to hear what they have to say about things they don't want to talk about. A fellow I worked with at a pro camera shop in my youth had the best memory of any human being I've ever met, and was smart enough to take advantage of that fact, but I used to drive him crazy making him think about stuff he wasn't really interested in ( "The Hard Problems Of Life" lol ).
But generally the wisdom of the average joe puts me to sleep. I mean, I enjoy "Lost", but I can only talk about it the next day at work for about fifteen minutes before I want to do something else. I can only listen to people talking about television shows for a very short time before I go all navel-gazey and inattentive. But I think I'd rather spend time with your old boss than with Einstein, too. Einstein's dead - it would be a boring conversation!
Maybe I'm an elitist, or just unlucky, or geographically challenged, but I've not encountered a lot of the profound thinkers that were "regular folk". Most of the people I've ever met that really thought about things ended up not being 'regular', regardless of their IQ, vocabulary, or vocation. I find people interesting, not particularly in the degree of their IQ or vocabulary, but in the degree at which they vary from the norm, in a thoughtful manner.
I call those people - the ones that never hear what anyone else says - "pseudointellectuals". They're not really interested in an active intellectual life. But usually, they're not really very intelligent at all, just self absorbed enough to pay attention to "the word of the day" and develop an expansive - and often poorly applied - vocabulary.
I've met people that were very, very smart, and very taciturn. I tend to like them, but they tend to dislike me, because I'm always fishing to hear what they have to say about things they don't want to talk about.
A fellow I worked with at a pro camera shop in my youth had the best memory of any human being I've ever met, and was smart enough to take advantage of that fact, but I used to drive him crazy making him think about stuff he wasn't really interested in ( "The Hard Problems Of Life" lol ). But generally the wisdom of the average joe puts me to sleep. I mean, I enjoy "Lost", but I can only talk about it the next day at work for about fifteen minutes before I want to do something else. I can only listen to people talking about television shows for a very short time before I go all navel-gazey and inattentive. But I think I'd rather spend time with your old boss than with Einstein, too. Einstein's dead - it would be a boring conversation!
Maybe I'm an elitist, or just unlucky, or geographically challenged, but I've not encountered a lot of the profound thinkers that were "regular folk". Most of the people I've ever met that really thought about things ended up not being 'regular', regardless of their IQ, vocabulary, or vocation. I find people interesting, not particularly in the degree of their IQ or vocabulary, but in the degree at which they vary from the norm, in a thoughtful manner.
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jstevewhite
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Just to clarify - when I say "personal value judgments" I mean "will it be valuable to me or this person to hang out together"; I'm not arrogant enough to believe that whether I like a person or not has any measure in their value as a human being. Just because I don't want to go bowling with someone doesn't mean they aren't a great father, husband, philanthropist, etc.
Just because I don't want to go bowling with someone doesn't mean they aren't a great father, husband, philanthropist, etc.Wow. Do you know how much I love this discussion?
Celeste, people don't leave you alone to drink your coffee because they know you have an opinion that you can state clearly and confidentally.
I once had a friend who suggested that everyone was "smart" in their own way. I think she meant "skilled," but it sort of boils down to the same thing in the end. You may not be able to discuss art, but you can fix foreign cars, play classical guitar, or care for wild animals. If I was judged on my math skills alone . . . well, let's just say if I had lived in the Soviet Union, I would have been put up for adoption right away, but I can discuss art.
I agree with Steve's assessment that regular joes who are intellectually active probably aren't that regular - even though, who's to say what's "regular"? (Seems a dangerous generalization to me.) Maybe they're hiding behind "regular" facades, but inside they're full of brilliance. And then you have the other "problem" thinkers - the ones who could cure world hunger if they just gave a damn, and the ones who are at the high end of the genius scale but are so socially inept that they are unapproachable.
However, I do think it is a shame when we feel we have to hide the fact that we are observant, sensitive to our environments, or seeking knowledge. And then there are the people who sense that you have a working brain and try to condescend or discredit your intelligence for the sake of their own flimsy egos.
Some of us are so hungry for discussions like these. If literature and history are to be believed, people used to organize social gatherings to converse about the interesting topics of the day. Today, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would show up.
Celeste, people don't leave you alone to drink your coffee because they know you have an opinion that you can state clearly and confidentally.
I once had a friend who suggested that everyone was "smart" in their own way. I think she meant "skilled," but it sort of boils down to the same thing in the end. You may not be able to discuss art, but you can fix foreign cars, play classical guitar, or care for wild animals. If I was judged on my math skills alone . . . well, let's just say if I had lived in the Soviet Union, I would have been put up for adoption right away, but I can discuss art.
I agree with Steve's assessment that regular joes who are intellectually active probably aren't that regular - even though, who's to say what's "regular"? (Seems a dangerous generalization to me.) Maybe they're hiding behind "regular" facades, but inside they're full of brilliance. And then you have the other "problem" thinkers - the ones who could cure world hunger if they just gave a damn, and the ones who are at the high end of the genius scale but are so socially inept that they are unapproachable.
However, I do think it is a shame when we feel we have to hide the fact that we are observant, sensitive to our environments, or seeking knowledge. And then there are the people who sense that you have a working brain and try to condescend or discredit your intelligence for the sake of their own flimsy egos.
Some of us are so hungry for discussions like these. If literature and history are to be believed, people used to organize social gatherings to converse about the interesting topics of the day. Today, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would show up.
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Celeste Stewart
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Celeste Stewart
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jstevewhite
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I dunno about that whole "everyone is smart in their own way" bit. It's a fairly common assertion, but I'm inclined to think that for "smart" to mean anything, then there must be those who are not "smart". You know, you don't hear people saying "everyone is tall in their own way" or "everyone is muscular in their own way" or even "everyone is fat in their own way".
I used to be apologetic about intellectual matters. As a society we like to pretend that Forrest Gump is more than a good movie filled with fantasies, but the reality of the matter is that intellect is an advantage in many arenas. No one felt the slightest bit bashful about telling me I wasn't tall enough to be a power forward, or big enough to be a defensive lineman, or that I was too heavy to be a good cross country competitor. No one feels ashamed to suggest that you should be at least 6' 9" tall to be a good center, or you should be physically attractive to be a model, or tall and skinny to be a fashion model. Why should I be ashamed to tell people that intellect really does matter in many fields? And why should I feel compelled to re-assure everyone of their own intellectual prowess even when it appears to be sadly lacking?
Help me out here, Ed. Is this unreasonable?
I used to be apologetic about intellectual matters. As a society we like to pretend that Forrest Gump is more than a good movie filled with fantasies, but the reality of the matter is that intellect is an advantage in many arenas. No one felt the slightest bit bashful about telling me I wasn't tall enough to be a power forward, or big enough to be a defensive lineman, or that I was too heavy to be a good cross country competitor. No one feels ashamed to suggest that you should be at least 6' 9" tall to be a good center, or you should be physically attractive to be a model, or tall and skinny to be a fashion model. Why should I be ashamed to tell people that intellect really does matter in many fields? And why should I feel compelled to re-assure everyone of their own intellectual prowess even when it appears to be sadly lacking?
Help me out here, Ed. Is this unreasonable?
Well . . .
Can of worms, J.Steve. Can of worms!
Okay. Well, intelligence is not a single-faceted quality like physical size (and then again, did those people telling you "no" account for speed, strength, endurance, and enthusiasm?). Some people may have the mental capacity to understand hard physics, yet have never been given the tools in order to express that talent/skill/intelligence. More on this below.
In addition. you are intelligent enough to know that the human brain is a susprising organ capable of unpredictable adaptability. Who's to say one person is or isn't intelligent "enough." Can't he or she become so if the desire, drive, practice, tools, support, etc. is there? Is someone simply "out of luck"? I don't believe that. Well, okay - I do believe in luck to some extent, but I also believe in recognizing opportunities and taking them when they come. Some people don't have those opportunities.
And before you say anything, I do have to stress that there are underserved communities that really do not give people a fighting chance. I worked at a social policy research center awhile ago, and perhaps my thinking was more in line with many of those who would call me an apologist for people who don't "help themselves." Unfortunately, when your culture, local government, school, parents, and the rate at which the community grows or doesn't grow economically has a huge impact on how much you can achieve - or how much you REALIZE you can achieve. We are talking about being isolated from thinkers . . . but there are people who are even more so. And think about if you were never given the tools that you, personally, needed to learn to read if you were one of those with a reading disability (and you needed something - whether it be glasses, a new mode of learning, a tutor, etc. but couldn't get it). Books are a major vehicle of education. Give that same person their missing support who hasn't been able to read/been exposed to books, and you've got a totally different person.
Of course, you have to *want* to learn something before you will . . . and I would argue that it's the height of trendiness not to want to actually learn and develop but just to try and shout your own crazy conclusions so loudly you don't hear any opposing opinions.
I have to go for a few hours.
Celeste, your 2-year old will probably be leading conversations at that cafe in a year or two. Go have your coffee.
Can of worms, J.Steve. Can of worms!
Okay. Well, intelligence is not a single-faceted quality like physical size (and then again, did those people telling you "no" account for speed, strength, endurance, and enthusiasm?). Some people may have the mental capacity to understand hard physics, yet have never been given the tools in order to express that talent/skill/intelligence. More on this below.
In addition. you are intelligent enough to know that the human brain is a susprising organ capable of unpredictable adaptability. Who's to say one person is or isn't intelligent "enough." Can't he or she become so if the desire, drive, practice, tools, support, etc. is there? Is someone simply "out of luck"? I don't believe that. Well, okay - I do believe in luck to some extent, but I also believe in recognizing opportunities and taking them when they come. Some people don't have those opportunities.
And before you say anything, I do have to stress that there are underserved communities that really do not give people a fighting chance. I worked at a social policy research center awhile ago, and perhaps my thinking was more in line with many of those who would call me an apologist for people who don't "help themselves." Unfortunately, when your culture, local government, school, parents, and the rate at which the community grows or doesn't grow economically has a huge impact on how much you can achieve - or how much you REALIZE you can achieve. We are talking about being isolated from thinkers . . . but there are people who are even more so. And think about if you were never given the tools that you, personally, needed to learn to read if you were one of those with a reading disability (and you needed something - whether it be glasses, a new mode of learning, a tutor, etc. but couldn't get it). Books are a major vehicle of education. Give that same person their missing support who hasn't been able to read/been exposed to books, and you've got a totally different person.
Of course, you have to *want* to learn something before you will . . . and I would argue that it's the height of trendiness not to want to actually learn and develop but just to try and shout your own crazy conclusions so loudly you don't hear any opposing opinions.
I have to go for a few hours.
Celeste, your 2-year old will probably be leading conversations at that cafe in a year or two. Go have your coffee.
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Celeste Stewart
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Defining "smart" isn't easy. Are book smarts and intelligence the same? Is a genuis really a genius if he makes dumb decisions or drinks himself to an early grave?
Is the goofy guy who sits out while the rest of his friends discuss the injustices of the world really a goofy guy or does the fact that he spends his free time helping the homeless speak louder than words? (I knew such a guy - he was highly-intelligent - and he did drink himself to an early grave but he also showed a great deal of compassion toward others).
In today's newspaper, the Quote of the Day was, "Think like a man of action. Act like a man of thought." Describes this guy to a tee.
Anyhow, I'm thankful that the world is filled with people of varying intellects and talents, flaws and all. Otherwise, what a dull place this world will be.
Is the goofy guy who sits out while the rest of his friends discuss the injustices of the world really a goofy guy or does the fact that he spends his free time helping the homeless speak louder than words? (I knew such a guy - he was highly-intelligent - and he did drink himself to an early grave but he also showed a great deal of compassion toward others).
In today's newspaper, the Quote of the Day was, "Think like a man of action. Act like a man of thought." Describes this guy to a tee.
Anyhow, I'm thankful that the world is filled with people of varying intellects and talents, flaws and all. Otherwise, what a dull place this world will be.
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audrabianca
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hello
Grouchy, I've missed you guys too. I've been struggling in the working world of bureaucracy when I was much more productive hanging around here everyday.
Celeste, this is a compliment, I think you are a lot more like your brother and sister than you let on. You have intellect that doesn't require an advanced degree to substantiate. I have an advanced degree (I am also the child of a scientist with a PhD), and it hasn't helped me to get a decent-paying job. Go figure.
I've met geniuses working at the supermarket and in restaurants. But what I had in common for many years was a healthy dose of social ineptness. I just don't like working in places where having something bright to say means people have to push you down.
Celeste, this is a compliment, I think you are a lot more like your brother and sister than you let on. You have intellect that doesn't require an advanced degree to substantiate. I have an advanced degree (I am also the child of a scientist with a PhD), and it hasn't helped me to get a decent-paying job. Go figure.
I've met geniuses working at the supermarket and in restaurants. But what I had in common for many years was a healthy dose of social ineptness. I just don't like working in places where having something bright to say means people have to push you down.
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Celeste Stewart
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Audra, that sucks that you can't just be yourself.
It took my brother years to come close to earning a living despite dual masters degrees and a PhD. But then again, how many high-paying jobs are out there requiring a PhD in philosophy? His wife has hers in poetry. So, they're smart but hungry. My sister is up to her eyeballs in debt but not necessarily because of student loans...
Don't get me wrong, I do value and respect degrees. In fact, both of my children already have healthy 529 plans so that paying for college won't be an issue.
It took my brother years to come close to earning a living despite dual masters degrees and a PhD. But then again, how many high-paying jobs are out there requiring a PhD in philosophy? His wife has hers in poetry. So, they're smart but hungry. My sister is up to her eyeballs in debt but not necessarily because of student loans...
Don't get me wrong, I do value and respect degrees. In fact, both of my children already have healthy 529 plans so that paying for college won't be an issue.